Vince White Interview 2010

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By Chairman Ralph



Given the parade of bio-pics flooding the big screen lately, it's amazing that nobody has tackled the Clash, also known as The Only Band That Matters (which might make a decent working title, actually). If it does, even money suggests that some director will tap Vince White's book, OUT OF CONTROL:: THE LAST DAYS OF THE CLASH (2007) for source material -- where they'll find enough backstabbing, drugs, groupies and greed to fuel a mini-series.
Or, as Vince says, after the whole band had gone out to the cinema to watch the heavy metal mockumentary, “This Is Spinal Tap”: “Spinal Clash would have made an even better film. It would have to be a black comedy though and it would require some skill to make.” While that possibility has yet to unfold, OUT OF CONTROL's black-humored recounting of the Clash's final two years– which produced the prematurely-titled CUT THE CRAP (1985) – has inspired plenty of tongue-clucking, online and off.
In that spirit, now seemed like a good time to run down what's happened since those initial press runs, as well as the proverbial Next Project, and if it's really possible to ignore the man behind the curtain.........whether he lurks behind the mixing board, record label boardroom, or political backroom. See for yourself: the highlights follow.



CHAIRMAN RALPH (CR): It is our appointed hour, so...we'll just start with the general, and work our way outwards. What are some of the notable things that have happened, since it's (OUT OF CONTROL) come out?

VINCE: I was quite surprised, actually, how good the response was. If you look on amazon.co.uk, there's a whole bunch of reviews up there. That's the only site I'm selling it on, apart from my own site. I thought I'd come in for a lot more stick than what I did.

CR: So, from that standpoint, were you surprised by any of the conclusions that reviewers drew?

VINCE: The message I've got is one that 99.999 percent of people don't wanna hear. They don't mind hearing that I was lied to and ripped off, that it was all crazy and out of control but implicit in that is they've been lied to and ripped off as well! See what I'm saying?
People were sending emails saying: “Great book!” when it seemed like they hadn't actually read the book or at least they hadn't read between the lines. I think a lot just read it as a bit of a rock 'n' roll story which is OK.

CR: Because it would be easy to take the rock 'n' roll story, and forget about the other subtexts going on...

VINCE: Well, I deliberately wrote it in that sense. In the sense I don't want to make people's minds up for them. I share an experience you can relate to and understand or not. I didn't want it to be some academic trawl through the history, you know? The idea of culture brings up the question for me as to why this band has been separated from every other as being “the band that matters.” Can you answer that because there's something very powerful implied in that statement isn't there?

CR: Well, I think – it's because they've (listeners) assumed there was an underlying intellectual edge to this (music) all along, and have sort of embellished on it.

VINCE: Well, I think that's fairly true – it's just that the intellectual edge isn't the one that people think it is. OK, the way I'd sort of sum it up is……..consciously or unconsciously……...we don't have a culture – it's an entertainment industry. It's a system, a business. It's all just phony. It's standard, manufactured, you know what I mean? I think people see the Clash as something separate from that, as kind of a street band – that it's authentic culture, that it comes from the bottom up.

CR: Sure.

VINCE: You've got a band that was backed by this giant conglomerate, corporate media structure, CBS, calling itself anti-establishment. A bit of a contradiction don't you think? I mean, no band could be up there, 'at the top', unless it's authorized to be there. International media companies like CBS and now Sony are owned by the richest people on the planet. And they're promoting socialism? Come on!

CR: You have the quote by (CBS executive) Maurice Oberstein, and I'm paraphrasing here: “I didn't see the Clash as a social phenomenon. I simply wanted to get on with making records.”

VINCE: Well, from being behind the scenes -- seeing how it was put together -- it was pretty orchestrated and planned. There was very little spontaneity in the whole thing. You can argue why they would push something like that so strongly. I mean, a band can't make it that big unless it's heavily promoted. That's just the facts.

CR: I think so, too.

VINCE: I think it's partly about promoting the illusion of a free society, “these rebels speaking up for you” -- the illusion of democracy, that anybody can get up and do it and become successful. The Clash were also promoting socialism. The top dogs like socialism.

CR: And, as you alluded to in one of your emails, you did an interview with the BBC, and they cut you off after a minute and a half...

VINCE: Well, it was an annoying interview, because they tried to steer everything into a very shallow area. You couldn't really get into anything but I deliberately pushed the conversation towards talking about corporate media. I didn't swear, Ralph, you know?!! I mentioned Sony, and bang, that was it! I was off the air: “We got to move on.”

CR: What were they trying to ask that was so shallow? Give me an example.

VINCE: It was so shallow I can hardly remember – I mean, just lightweight questions. The sort of questions they asked me when I joined the Clash: “Were you a fan before you joined?” That sort of dumb thing. Nothing of any consequence, but that's the way it is. You see that more and more these days.

CR: Did you have any other experiences like that?

VINCE: Well, there's the book itself. One of the first things I found is that the big publishing houses have all been bought out, the famous names like Penguin and Granada. Well, they keep the brand name but they've all been bought out and merged into only two giant houses. And from there you can only go to the independents who are very small.

CR: And, as I remember you telling me last time, a lot of them said, “Well, great writing, but you're not part of the original band, and we can't compete with Redemption Song”...

VINCE: Yeah. Well, that's what my agent said.

CR: So, were you shocked by that, or figure that out after the first go-rounds of turndowns?

VINCE: No, they send letters. Everything goes very slow in the publishing business, you know? It took over a year to finally get all those replies through. But it should cause people some concern to know that things are being heavily vetted, and stuff only gets out there if it's approved by the establishment.

CR: So, having said that – how well has the book done?

VINCE: Well, it depends. How are you gonna value it? In terms of response from people, sales, or whatever? Yeah, it's done all right. If you go through a publishing house it ends up on the shelves in stores which is nice – but you're lucky to see a few pennies on the price. If I sell it independently I get to keep control of it.

CR: And you get to keep all the money, which is even better.

VINCE: Yeah, but – even Amazon, they take 60 percent. I'm not kidding. If you've got a £15 book, they take £9 of that. And out of the remainder, you have to make the books, you have to write the book, you have to do the cover – do all the work and you have to pay to post books to their warehouse. By the end of it, you're left with maybe £2-3 on each book if you're lucky. It's not that clever – everyone else is making money except you. It's a rigged game, you know? They got it sewn up. Complete control, baby. I mean, these people know what they're doing.

CR: Absolutely. I imagine this was why we didn't have any photos, correct? Because that would really have bumped up your cost.....

VINCE: Well, I never really saw it as that kind of a book, you know – like a normal rock biog thing with pictures. It's written as a work of art, a piece of beat style literature. If I do another print run which doesn't seem very likely at the moment, I'll probably put cartoons in it. I'll draw them myself. You know, drawings that look cool. Hopefully, at least.

CR: I would love to see that. So what's the next book?

VINCE: It'll be about my experience in the art world. I went to art college some years back. I wrote an art blurb for my website and that triggered off a few ideas. I could expand on that quite a lot, do it in the same style as OUT OF CONTROL – but include some cultural markers, a commentary on what's going on from my point of view.

CR: Well, my wife – being an artist – has commented that the art world often seems as manufactured as the entertainment world.

VINCE: Yeah, it's all part of the same kind of agenda.

CR: So, do we have an idea when this is going to come out, or are you simply just doing it as you go along?

VINCE: Well, I haven't started it. I've had a year off from doing any arty things. I've got a '65 Mustang and I've been restoring it. I've put a new top on it, new carpet and it's looking pretty good – you have to come over, dude.

CR: Oh, absolutely. I really want to see how things have changed in London, and the UK........

VINCE: Oh, man, it's incredible – it really is off the charts. I got thrown off the tube the other day...........

CR: Because?

VINCE: For drinking beer! Well, they have their little wars, you see? They started on smoking – you can't smoke anywhere now – and now they're coming down on alcohol. The thing is, they didn't put any signs up. If they're going to change the rules, I think people have a right to be told. It's not that I couldn't have a drink. I wasn't bothered. If they don't want me to drink, I won't. It's their silly little train set not mine after all.

CR: At least let folks know......

VINCE: These days people get all their information from the media, the TV, the papers and the radio, magazines. I don't have it with any of that stuff and so I'm not gonna know unless I'm told. I started to argue with them – I pulled my ticket out, I'd paid eight quid, or whatever...and the transport staff just grabbed me by the arm -- big guy, you know? He just started lifting me up the stairs, and threw me out of Baker Street tube station, out on the street! I couldn't believe it! This is the new freedom in Britain, man.

CR: Right. Of course, that's been their “get out” clause to expand all this massive federal power.

VINCE: Well, yeah – just a lot of surveillance, and police becoming more high-profile everywhere. You're seeing police powers being given to lower and lower functionaries. You've got a whole new bunch of people called community service officers walking around. They started up a few years ago, they're more arrogant now and they can stop you. Even the traffic wardens are gonna get police powers soon.....

CR: Really?

VINCE: Yeah – everyone's gonna be policing everyone else. It's just like the fucking Soviet Union. Because effectively, we're now in the EU, and all the orders come from that, which is a bunch of bureaucrats and councils – they're not even elected. Don't worry, you'll have it in the U.S. soon with the North American Union (laughs). The final agreement between the U.S., Canada and Mexico is due to be signed this year. Was there anything else you want to know about?

CR: I'm assuming, this book is your way of moving on from the Clash– yet they're (fans) always going to put that association in front of your name. Do you see that as a hindrance?

VINCE: No, no! I'm never gonna say the Clash didn't rock! I mean, that was a great band to play in. The music and the songs were good. My interest today is in the business around it, how that kind of fits together, the way people perceive it and how the whole culture industry works.
It's the same, like you said, with the art thing. You've got something like Damien Hirst, or one of these artists that becomes really successful – you really think they're making it on their merits? I can't believe that. I just see a useful idiot that they've placed there who goes along with an agenda.

CR: Yeah, because you see their name mentioned a lot of times, and somebody else's not mentioned as much – or not mentioned at all.

VINCE: The most avant garde thing he could do right now is to actually paint a picture by himself, you know, like a classy Dutch landscape or something. But he can't paint. All the art of the last century has been systematically taking away any kind of inherent aesthetics. They're just trying to make things as debased as possible. I mean, you can't make it in the art world unless you're doing something really disgusting. That's what I see –a debasement of the whole thing. If you want to subvert and control a people you first have to demoralise them. Art is the first thing to go.

CR: Is there a particular school (of art) that you're drawn to, more than the others?

VINCE: No, not really. I mean, one of the things I like doing is just experimenting and playing with a whole different bunch of things. I don't really have what you call a style. When I went to one of my art college interviews, for one of the posh schools, St Martin's I think it was, there was a panel there and they dismissed it: “Well, this work could be made by a whole bunch of different people!” I wasn't manufacturing a style, do you know what I mean? That's the way they like to think.

CR: Well, you've done a couple of your own shows, haven't you?

VINCE: Yeah, but in terms of the forthcoming book, I'm more interested in looking at it from a cultural perspective – rather than, “This is my art.” You don't make it in any part of this system unless you're funded heavily in one way or another. Nothing comes from the grass roots. It just doesn't. People need to understand that – it's like the Guggenheim Foundation. They pick you. They decide who they're gonna make stars, who they're gonna make famous.....

CR: Right, who's going to be worthy......

VINCE: They don't make it on their own merits. The game is rigged. And I think you can apply that right across the board – through the music industry, films and everything these days. And that ties in with the Clash. You can enjoy the music but I wouldn't take it too seriously because it's not what you think it is – that's all I'm trying to say.
It's even more pronounced in the art world, because it's even more subjective. At least with music, you can listen to it, get an immediate feeling about it. Art is a little bit more intellectual – you can bullshit with it, basically. The more educated and cultured people are, the more they get taken for a ride it seems to me.
A pile of bricks in a gallery, what the hell is that?!! You can pontificate about it for hours but the joke's on them. That guy who bought the Damien Hirst skull – that was his most expensive piece. It's worth millions. Diamonds on a skull? If there's a massive depression and the supermarket shelves are empty I'd like to see him try and sell it and get his money back. He'll get more for a ham sandwich.

CR: Hopefully, he took all that stuff into account...but, going back to the Clash – the tone was set from the first audition...which was an “American Idol”-type audition, wasn't it? So (Clash manager) Bernie (Rhodes) was ahead of his time, I guess.

VINCE: Well, Bernie – that guy is just so incredibly secretive. I mean, I like my privacy but……. there are hardly any photographs of him. He wouldn't let anyone photograph himself. You've got to ask yourself, what's this guy got to hide? I wonder what organizations he's affiliated with.
The point I'd like to get across to people is that they really ought to think outside the box more– think independently and critically about what they're allowing into their heads as far as music and culture goes, and question it. All entertainment is propaganda. I know it's difficult like when you're young. I know you don't wanna be bothered with stuff like that. You just want to enjoy yourself. You don't wanna think about what's going on behind this........like you say, who's behind the curtain, pushing the levers.

OUT OF CONTROL:The Last Days of The Clash